Podcast Episodes

Lisa Smith 0:11
Hello, welcome to Be.Make.Do. a soul|makers podcast where we talk about what it takes to pursue your calling as a culture maker with spiritual wholeness and creative freedom. I'm your host, Lisa Smith, and I'm here with producer Dan ABH. And we are just so excited to encourage and inspire you to become who you were created to be, to make what you were created to make and to do what you are created to do. So we are in our second season, which is very exciting. Yes. And I have some great news, we are going to be heading down on the road, we're going to be heading down to North Carolina in March for The Breath and the Clay conference with artists which is so it's such a fantastic I've never been able to be there before. But it's an outgrowth of the Makers & Mystics podcast. So we're going to be there. We're going to take a crew, we're going to have some fun and meet some other artists and hopefully get to meet some of you in person.

Dan ABH 1:12
I would love that. And I'm really excited to get out of the DC area for a few days. Very stoked about that.

Lisa Smith 1:20
So yeah, if you are interested in a road trip yourself or live in the area of North Carolina, you can check out in the show notes for all the details there. And you can go and, and register that'll be March 22 through the 24th.

Lisa Smith 1:34
All right, so let's dive into the second episode in this new series, the wise hearted ones exploring the creation of the Tabernacle story in Exodus. And really underneath all of that is answering this, this bigger question of "why does it matter that you make art?" So we are going to have a conversation with Deborah Sokolove, the former director of the Center for Theology and the Arts at Wesley Theological Seminary, and get into the answer of that question. Deborah is a great person for us to talk to about this, because she is an artist. She's a theologian, she's a teacher, she's a writer, and she has been working with artists forever. She's somebody that I met when I was trying to figure out this combination of what happens with this art and faith thing as I graduated from seminary. And it was really, really helpful in helping me to understand visual arts and ways that we might be able to do things at Convergence, so I'm excited to be able to introduce you to her. So let's let's get started. Let's do it.

Lisa Smith 2:53
So I have with me here today, my good friend and mentor, Deborah Sokolove. She's an artist, teacher and author. She's the former director of Henry Luce III Center for the Arts and Religion at Wesley Theological Seminary, where she's now Professor Emeritus of Art and Worship. She's a member of Seekers Church in DC, which is in the tradition of the Church of the Savior. And as an author, her two most recent books are Sanctifying Art: Inviting Conversations Between Artists, Theologians, and the Church, Art For Faith's Sake, and Performing the Gospel: Exploring the Borderland of Worship, Entertainment, and the Arts, both fantastic books, and you can see her artwork at her website dsokolove.com. And we'll put all of those links and everything like that in the show notes so that you can go and visit but I, I know you Deborah, as a mentor and a teacher and incredible encourager. You were a huge, I mean, you were a huge piece of my development as I was starting C onvergence, and really not necessarily knowing what I was doing, and helping to shape my thinking about arts and Christian community. So I I'm really excited to have you here. So thank you. Thanks for being here.

Deborah Sokolove 4:10
Well, thank you for that affirmation. I often think that helping other people find their true voice and their true calling, is my true calling. And that everything else that I do is in service of that. That's a very peculiar place to be, you know, nobody pays you to do that. No, but it's not a job that somebody hires you to do. And yet, it really is the thing that I think is the most important thing that I've done in my life and that I'm the most proud of. And so your affirmation that that that I've helped you in those ways is just...

Lisa Smith 4:47
I think it's so beautiful that you see it that way, because that is definitely a huge, huge gift that you're probably given all the time. You don't even realize it in some cases. And so your work through your books, through your work all of these things. Well, it's interesting you talk about that idea of that part of your calling that like, nobody pays you, it's not your your job title. But we we talk about calling a lot at Convergence and soul|makers as being about more than just what you do that job title or that mission or whatever. But like it being tied to becoming who you were created to be, who God created you to be. And then focusing on those, making the things you were created to make - is the way that we put it - but like, really developing the gifts and talents that you have, and that those can be used in all kinds of circumstances, regardless of your circumstances and the circumstances change. But I was, I was wondering, yeah, to hear a little bit more on your thoughts on call, in particular, because I know you've given this great deal of thought.

Deborah Sokolove 5:56
Well, the notion of call is really central to our, the church that I belong to, and that we try to do everything out of call. Now, not everything can be done out of call. There's sometimes you just have to do something because it's got to be done, whether you feel like it or not, and whether you were called to it or not, other than a more general call, to be a decent human being. And you know, if the, I don't know, if the sink is, is overflowing, it's your job to do the best you can to stop it, even though there was something else you wanted to be about, and that might be more lovely to do. Now certain things as human beings and as followers of Jesus that we are called to do, that have nothing to do with our particular calling that brings us joy and love, you know, all those things. And then even within those particular callings, of, of, you know, the the particular thing or things we are called to because I do believe that our particular calling changes over over time and in different stages of our life. Even within that particularity of call, there are things that just aren't fun. You know? It's not all joy and happiness. And you know, bluebirds and butterflies all the time. It's sometimes it's just hard work. Yeah, when I do a project, at the beginning, it's all "Oh, I can't wait to do it!" And, you know, all that wonderful excitement at the beginning. And then there's the middle part that I refer to typically as donkey work.

Lisa Smith 7:43
Yes, we're all familiar with that.

Deborah Sokolove 7:45
You just have to keep going. Even when you're not inspired. An artist friend of mine, an older, she was a mentor to me, actually, I think she, I haven't seen her in many years and I believe she, she has died. She used to say, every day you have to present the body. Even if all you do is arrange your paint, or sweep the floor, every day, you need to go into the studio and do something. And, and the term she used was to present the body and she was very conscious that this was a, you know, a reference to being part of the body of Christ that you we present our physical body. And we become part of the body in the solitude of the studio.

Lisa Smith 8:37
I love that. And I love these ways of thinking about artistic craft that link to spiritual craft, you know, spiritual disciplines, because I encounter people who are stuck as artists, or oftentimes some some artists who are very involved in church can kind of sometimes feel like, a little bit guilty about getting to make art, you know, getting it's like I get to do this fun thing, the special thing, whatever. And they get stuck, because that seems frivolous or like it's, it's it's taking time that I could be doing something more important. And when you shift it to this idea of having a responsibility to develop to actually just show up that is part of living out the call. I think that that takes on a whole different different tone, and an approach of what it is you're actually doing when you're when you're going into the studio or sitting down to write or whatever.

Deborah Sokolove 9:44
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That if you're an artist, it's important to take that seriously that if that is your calling from God, that it's important to take it seriously whatever that is, and taking it seriously too. So a lot of different forms, I myself do not present the body every day. I my own pattern, which I learned to recognize a long time ago, is that I have very long fallow periods when I'm doing some, a whole lot of other things either because of necessity in my life or because of, because I'm empty, because my well is empty. And I need time for it to fill back up. And so I typically have very long fallow periods, sometimes lasting several years at a time, when I'm not consciously or intentionally or visibly making art of any kind. And that is all grist for the mill.

Lisa Smith 10:51
And I think that's, I think that is hard to understand and accept, even, even for artists, like I'm thinking about that for myself, even. You know, I feel like, I should be productive and gotta, you know, turn it out. But it doesn't work that way. And I know, I know from experience that if I take a full day, and I'm gardening, or I take a walk, or I'm just not doing anything, that when I come back to whatever I'm working on, you know, it can be a 15 minute period that then it all just pours out. And it feels like oh, I should have been working for for eight hours and breaking for 15. But it doesn't, it doesn't work that way. And even like you're saying years of a fallow period of understanding that, like you said, that's grist for the mill that is a part of living into your call of being able to understand and listen to your, your body and your mind. And your your health as to what do you need right now in order to kind of, I don't know, prepare the vessel or whatever, for what, you know what God's gonna do through that. It is a different kind of work.

Deborah Sokolove 12:00
It is. And it's also very countercultural. What you just said about feeling like, Oh, if I'm an artist, and I need to work eight hours a day, or 40 hours a week or whatever, at my art, that is such a capitulation to the work, you know, dare I say "capitalist" way of thinking, the workaholic way of thinking that we have inherited from our culture. That if I'm an artist, then I need to justify my existence by working at my art as though it were my job. And I have lived that way a lot of times in my life. And it's kind of crazy making.

Lisa Smith 12:41
It is, especially because it doesn't work that way.

Deborah Sokolove 12:49
And yet, we've, you know, we've taken in all of these messages from the culture that we live in, that we have to work, work, work, we have to be productive, we have to, we have to justify our lives. I once said to somebody in my church that I feel like I have to justify my existence all the time. And he just kind of looked at me and he said, "Well, you're a Christian, you are justified."

Deborah Sokolove 13:26
You know, Jesus didn't work all the time. Right? He both did and didn't, you know, he was always himself. And I think that's one of the things we need to learn, as followers of Jesus, that being who we truly are, is really what we're supposed to be doing. And if that means I need to take a nap in the afternoon, I get to. And if that means I'm in uninspired period, and I need to spend 20 hours a day in the studio, and neglect everything else in my life. That's what I need to be doing at that time.

Lisa Smith 14:11
Right? Those seasons. Yeah, yeah. And you're right, it's learning to trust, to trust enough that you're that that impulse or that instinct is okay. And I think, you know, you're talking about Jesus that he was it was trusting the appropriateness doing what's appropriate in this moment, as opposed to, "What justifies the use of my time right now? Getting paid."

Deborah Sokolove 14:36
Sometimes he was, you know, making food for five thousand people, and sometimes he was off in solitude in the desert, wherever he was. And I think as artists being an artist is an identity. It's not, it's who I am whether I am making art today or not. It's a way of approaching life that is different than having a nine to five job. It's different than being a mechanic who works, you know, from eight in the morning to four in the afternoon fixing cars, and then gets to do something else. I mean, maybe being a mechanic is that person's calling. My brother in law is a mechanic and it is his calling. But he also has other things in his life that he likes to do. And that's fine, because we all have a lot of things in our lives that we like to do.

Deborah Sokolove 15:35
But as an artist, we don't have to get our living that way. It's nice if we can, but sometimes I have thought often I have thought that the whole commercial enterprise of art really poisons the joy of art. Once I start trying to work out, you know, what do I have to price this painting painting at in order to justify all the hours I spent on it? Could anyone afford to buy it? And do I want the person who can afford to buy it be the one who has that work? And I would find myself in the middle of a painting, doing math problems in my head: how many dollars per hour was I earning, or could I possibly earn so that I could make a living at art? And that was probably the most crazy making period of my life that I needed to, I needed to pay the bills. But trying to do that by making art when then the price is the market the art out of reasonable ordinary people to have it? Which which is always the whole point, is I want people to enjoy it.

Lisa Smith 16:53
Well, I think that I mean, this conversation, and then the other side of that. So if you get to the point where you say, okay, well, the market is problematic. So I I'm I am an artist, like you said the identity, and I make art because that's just what I do. Then the other side of that, you know, what am I trying to say? So to kind of counteract the way that that's received, that I make art, because that's, that's who I am. And, you know, everybody else in the world is like, okay, well, that's nice, but you know, and so then we try to justify it with the commercial end of things. And that doesn't quite fit right, either. And there's all kinds of different ways that people try to justify why art making is good, because it helps you do other things, or helps people do other things. But isn't there something more than that, deeper than that? Like, why does it matter that we make art in the church in the world? Like, especially when there's so many things, you know, the world is on fire. Why? Why does it matter that art making happens?

Deborah Sokolove 18:04
What I've come to understand, and it took me a long, long time to get to this understanding, and I don't believe it's the final understanding, but it's the one I'm living with right now is that whatever we do, whether it's art making, or anything else, that our task is really to, to increase the joy in the world. And one of the ways to do that is through enjoying what I do, and that's not a superficial, you know, bodied, I'm happy. But that deep satisfaction that what I'm doing, keeps me in the moment and keeps me connected with this moment, and with the world around me in a lot of different ways. If I am spending most of my day, weeping and being depressed because of the state of the world, I am not increasing the joy in the world. I have friends who think that's their job, is to know about every terrible thing that's happening in the world. And I'm thinking, how do you, you can't fix any of it. You can fix maybe you can fix this little tiny piece of it, but you can't fix all of it. Why do you need to know all of that? And they'll give me good rational reasons or maybe even good faith reasons. But the answer for me is I don't need to do that. What I need to do is notice the world around me and notice the world within me.

Lisa Smith 19:57
And I think in a lot of ways that is what artists also help others do through their work is to draw attention. And, and as we're kind of talking about the the cultural values, what we're kind of saying is that there needs to be this understanding of this valuing of that, that, that being attentive to this moment, and to what's going on inside of me, and then that pouring out into how I interact with you. Not only is that a valuable thing that we see as artists, but that's kind of a big part of what it means to be a Christian. Right? You know, that's what Jesus was kind of getting at. So there's this modeling of that, and inviting through our, through our work inviting other people into that as well.

Deborah Sokolove 20:47
My church is filled with activists, and, you know, they're out there demonstrating for really good causes, and I don't fault them at all. In fact, I sometimes think, gee, I should be doing that with them. But then I realized that, if I were doing that with them, then I'm not spending the hours that I need to be spending, writing liturgy that nourishes them. And so that's another piece of my calling as an artist, as a poet, my, my poetic form, is liturgical prayer. And so if I shirk that time, careful, carefully crafting the words that the congregation are going to say, because I'm out there demonstrating, or I'm writing letters, or I'm doing all those things that all my activist friends do, and then I feel guilty that I'm not doing. You know, I have to remind myself, that this feeds the congregation. This feeds my activist friends. And the more that I am able to attend to the world around me, whether that is the people that I see, or, you know, whatever it is, and bring that back into the church and into the prayers of the church, then I am doing something that's what I have to remind myself all the time, that I am doing something for the betterment of the world in a very, you know, visit visible and, and real way.

Deborah Sokolove 22:29
But again, this is part of, you know, long years of practice and reflection on why do I do what I do? Why do I live as not just a visual artist, but I began to claim the role of poet and that, that liturgical prayer is the form my poetry takes. It's not private poetry, it's public poetry. And just as I more and more have become, have become appreciative of public art in all of its forms, you know, you walk down the street and you see a sculpture, you see a mural or something, and you can't help but engage with it. Usually, it's a lot of public art is very whimsical. And goodness, in a city street with sirens blaring, and people asking you for money and people stopping you for whatever good cause they want you to sign a petition for, or whatever, you know, you're walking down the street, you can't even have your own thoughts. And yet, you know, here's this piece of art that just makes you smile.

Lisa Smith 23:33
Yeah, or surprise, or surprise, confusion, or whatever it is.

Deborah Sokolove 23:40
And somebody had to spend a lot of time doing that. And as a society, if we don't value that, then what are we? Are we supposed to just work all the time? You know, again, it's coming back to that workaholic culture, that doesn't value art, or what artists do. But we want those things. I mean, all the people who go to the movies and watch Netflix, and you know, we, we do value that stuff, but we don't want to pay for it. And we don't want to give people time to do it. Right. But somehow we want it. Yeah, it's very schizophrenic.

Lisa Smith 24:25
I really wonder what that disconnect is between that understanding of I'm surrounding myself with this stuff, but but it isn't valuable, but I guess it's because of that production... thing.

Deborah Sokolove 24:39
Yeah. And because in our culture, we think only serious things are important. And fun things are not important. Even though you know we spend millions of dollars building theme parks and yet our discourse is that if it's dark and hard, then it's important.

Lisa Smith 25:11
This is part of part of what we're wanting to explore at soul|makers is how do you help artists have an awareness of the possibility, even though the understanding generally is not there of what the value is of art making, or the potential for what art can do? And clearly, you can't go into the studio and say, Okay, I'm going to, I'm going to make that piece of art that's going to change the world. You know, good luck with that. But still, there's, how can we enter into that space with an understanding that there's the potential for that? And even in filmmaking, I mean, there's certainly, you know, there's political, there's cultural perspectives, um, you know, I'm sure there's even there's always spiritual perspectives and everything, like, how do we kind of become aware of that in those industries, so that as a Christian, you're entering it with this whole tool bag, this whole understanding of things that you're capable of talking about, but maybe it's not, doesn't have to be a Jesus movie. Maybe trusting the art piece of it a little bit more, and having a deeper set of theological tools? Maybe?

Deborah Sokolove 26:26
Yeah and that is one of the problems of the relationship of the church in the arts is that the Church wants to control the theological message. And historically, the church has been especially, you know, since the Reformation, the Protestant churches, but for certain, to a large extent, the Catholic Church as well, wants to control the theological message, and artists are dangerous. When you give artists free reign, you don't know what they're gonna say, they don't know what, we don't know what we're gonna say. We don't know what we're saying until we've said it.

Lisa Smith 27:05
Well, and I find it interesting, too, I am surprised at how many artists, writers, dancers, whatever, end up in seminary or taking classes, because I think if they have that sense of, I think this is for something bigger than me, but I don't know how, you know, they're not necessarily finding that those tools in their church, and so they go to seminary to develop those tools. But then even so, there's this struggle, once you've gained that knowledge, and you're starting to apply it. It's like, okay, now where do I use this? Because I think like, I wonder if churches were able to see artists, as, you know, art making as ministry, not not in the church, necessarily, but but maybe in the church as well, like as a tool for theological reflection. Would would that attitude shift help everybody know what to do with art and artists better?

Deborah Sokolove 28:11
Yeah. It's just an ongoing project. I think you're right, that that a lot of artists do wind up in seminary, I've known I knew a lot. I'm sure you did.

Lisa Smith 28:26
I'm sure you probably know all of them. I, this reminds me I remember when we were close to the beginning and starting Convergence. And I was talking with a lot of people and talking with artists locally about what we do and inviting them in and that kind of stuff. And I remember talking to this one girl who was an artist, and she was not a Christian. And she just kind of had this puzzled look on her face. And she was because normally people were like, oh, art in the church. Oh, that's interesting. But she was like, Well, I can see what artists would have to offer the church. But I'm not sure what the church would offer to artists. Oh, that I've never heard that one before. That's really interesting. And there's, you know, problematic there.

Lisa Smith 29:08
And of course, on the other side of it is like churches are often unintentionally saying, I know what we have to offer the artists but I'm not sure what the artist has to offer us. But like, if you're not thinking about the general thing of what churches have to offer all all people, I think it's a really good question of what what, what do churches offer artists specifically, and what to artists specifically, offer churches because I think that it might be in that specificity that the interesting conversation is, is hanging out because maybe there is this specific role that is undefined and that's part of what's so uncomfortable between pastoral leadership and artists like they're they're two different kinds of leadership. Really, I think.

Deborah Sokolove 29:59
Yeah. They are one of the problems that just leaps into mind as you frame the question that way is, is that the word artist encompasses so much. So it's relatively easy to hang a painting on the wall. You can, you can do that a lot of churches do that a lot of churches still use their narthex as exhibition space, and it's wonderful. And it doesn't compete with the worship, because the worship happens on the other side of the door from the narthex. So it's, it's an experience that people can have, but it isn't considered part of worship. And that's one kind of relationship, it's a different kind of relationship, if we invite the art making to happen in the room. And, and then, you know, it just depends. I know, there are some visual artists who have taught themselves how to paint in public. And so they paint while there's music going on, or while there's a sermon going on, or something. And then, you know, the big reveal, and everybody goes, Oh, they think that's what art is about. And I find that very problematic. Not so much for the artists, but for the audience who think that that's what, how art gets made, and that art doesn't take time, that you can do this wonderful finished painting in 20 minutes.

Deborah Sokolove 31:41
And you can't, I mean, you can, but it's a very particular kind of art, and somebody else's art that doesn't lend itself to that, or that doesn't lend itself to being topical, because that's another thing that, you know, if you're a painter whose work responds to what's going on, in the absolute immediate, then people respond to it a particular way. But if your work is more ethereal, or more general, or more interior, I mean more anything than responding to the immediate issue, whether the issue is political or climate change, or whatever. Then it's devalued in a lot of ways by the public.

Deborah Sokolove 32:31
I also mean by congregations who, you know, want, legitimately want art to help them know how to think. You know, I don't, it's not wrong. It's just not the only thing that visual artists do. And then when you expand the word artists to mean, poets and different kinds of musicians and different kinds of, you know, screenwriters and playwrights, and actors, then you're in - yet again - a different universe, of how that can interact with the life of the church.

Lisa Smith 33:08
Yeah, I just think there's, I think there's a maybe a misunderstanding, like, you're talking about the painting, and, you know, and during the sermon time or whatever. I think that's a misunderstanding of what the real power and place of art is.

Deborah Sokolove 33:26
So just as you were talking, I was thinking was, what can the art, what can the church offer an artist is one of the things that the church can offer an artist is genuine, thoughtful engagement with their art. And if indeed you won, we, the church, a church featured a particular artwork, and said, "Let's spend five minutes of the Word (time), just looking at this piece of work, just stop talking." I'm not going to explain it to you, right? Just look at this thing. And maybe it's big enough for the whole congregation to see or maybe it's a small thing, and then you can magnify it with projection or whatever. Don't play music.

Deborah Sokolove 34:25
Let's just look at this object for five minutes, which will feel like an eternity that pretty much any Christian congregation, or pretty much any American who isn't already a meditator, right? Five minutes, let's spend some time looking at this. And then let's spend the rest of the allotted 20 minutes or whatever you allot for a sermon for responses from the group in the hearing of the artist. That is something you know if I hear oh, you're so talented, one more time I'm gonna scream. No, I'm not so talented. What do you what is this work, make you think about or fail or something? And so frame that conversation that way. That is, that is one of the most important gifts that the church can give to an artist, because they never get that anywhere except maybe in a critique group of other artists.

Lisa Smith 35:24
And you know, as you're answering this I'm realizing that this is also probably the answer to the other side of the question of how do we help artists become more theologically aware or aware of how their work can help people learn to see by by exactly that, by hearing that response, those responses, then they're able to I have seen that I have definitely witnessed that as people get those responses, they realize, oh, oh, wow, I had no, I had no idea. Or I can ask this question in this way, which is going to prompt somebody to think even deeper. So it's interesting that what, maybe part of that training is also part of the gift. That's really cool. Yeah. Well, Deborah, before this been an amazing conversation, but before we kind of wrap up, I just kind of wondered, as someone who has mentored and taught and nurtured artists of all sorts over so many years, what, what questions, do you see kind of popping up over and over again, or struggles? For those artists at this intersection of art and faith? And how do you how do you encourage artists? Or what do you kind of find yourself telling telling them?

Deborah Sokolove 36:45
Well people do bump up against the making a living thing. You know, everything from how should I price this work, to should I give up my day job and what happens if I give up my day job? Those are really, I think everybody runs into those. We used to live in a universe back in the time when people lived in mostly villages and small towns, where, you know, there was somebody who wanted to people who played musical instruments, and a few people who had beautiful singing voices, and maybe a really good storyteller. And somebody who knew how to make beautiful carvings. And everybody relied on those people in the village, in their village.

Deborah Sokolove 37:45
And so there was room in the universe, for a whole lot of people who did those things, because everybody served their own village. In our commercial world, there is less and less room for more and more people who have this calling and these, these innate desires to do things, because most of the space is taken up by the famous people. So we don't invite the best singer that we personally know, to sing to, to entertain at the wedding reception. We hire a DJ, to play the music of the records of the famous record, or whatever, you know. We aren't content in our churches, to be the choir, let alone let the more the better singers in our group be the choir. We hire professionals to fill in the roles in the choir so that the choir sounds professional. So our values have been warped, and we no longer give space for the local people, who really are often quite good to do what they do. And so I think visual artists particularly have a really hard time because there's no place for them to do work casually, you know, but that's because we have created a world we collectively our society has collected, created a world in which there's no more room for these local expressions. So the church can do better. The church can say, who we have is who we have. And so who will sit?

Lisa Smith 39:57
It's so interesting because I'm very much marinating in the questions around what is the role of the artist in the 21st century, given all of these constraints? And yet at the same time, there's obviously questions about how the church operates. And what does the church look like going forward in the same way? And I, I feel like in everything you just said, to me, I saw those two questions come together and see how much they really can be integrated the answers to both of those questions. So much can happen. If churches and the that traditional role that the artists play, if we could all kind of get together, there's a lot, there's just so much we could do in our local communities. Yeah, using both of these because they are meant to go together.

Deborah Sokolove 40:48
They are, they are, there's no question about it, that we actually can't have church without the arts. From the building that we meet in which is architecture, right. The chairs we sit on, somebody had to design them and build them. But you know, we can't do it without the arts. But we have to do it thoughtfully with the art. Yeah. And not always call on the same two artists. Who else gets to do it? We need a more participatory model. And in the end, I really believe that's what the church can offer the world.

Deborah Sokolove 41:27
This is not the model of the world. This can be the model of the church, so that the church isn't always chasing what the world teaches. But saying, here's another way, this is what the kingdom of God looks like. This is how we love one another. By making beautiful things together or making maybe awkward strange looking things. Maybe singing off-key together and still appreciating the oddness of every voice. You know. And that's what we, you know, Jesus said, Let them see how you love one another. And show the world a different way than this crazy workaholic star system that we have where only the stars get millions of dollars and most people get nothing. But the church doesn't have to be like that. The church doesn't have to be a hierarchical structure. The church can distribute its leadership and distribute the artmaking and distribute the joy.

Lisa Smith 42:41
Yeah, mic drop right?

Lisa Smith 43:01
You know, one of the biggest things that I take away from that conversation was her advocating for the way that the church can have a become a model for a different way of doing this by using local artists, by supporting people in your community. And I think beyond churches, but just Christians in general like to have this supporting your neighbor artist, to hire the person that lives in your neighborhood, or is local as opposed to like, the wedding (reception) band, you know, whatever does all the covers? And it reminds me I actually had a conversation with a friend who was telling me about that, the Torah actually has that concept of supporting your neighbor in business, like that's a part of Jewish culture.

Lisa Smith 43:51
The idea, which is really cool, the idea is that not just that you're supporting your local business, but you're supposed to, like buy from your local business, even if some big box store comes in and offers a better deal. You're still supposed to support your neighbor. And the idea is that not only are you supporting them and helping them to grow, and they would obviously be helping you to grow your business as well, but if some somebody else is offering like a better deal, or a better quality product, you are, you're then going to go back to your neighbor and be like, Hey, this guy has a better product, you need to get better, you know, like I I'm going to purchase from you or I'm going to have you play at my wedding. Right? But you better be darn good. You know? So this idea of like really being invested in local artists, to not only help them support themselves, but also to be accountability, and advocating for the importance of what they do. Like I think that's really beautiful.

Dan ABH 44:50
I do too and it reminds me of that quote, "Love thy neighbor." Somebody really famous for that, right?

Lisa Smith 44:56
Yeah, I've heard that before.

Dan ABH 44:59
I loved that conversation. You know, as I'm behind the boards, you know, doing my thing producing this podcast, it's, you know, there are things that are said where it kind of takes me away from that for a second. And one of the main things was recapping what y'all said about the disconnect of where we are at as a socie ty and our culture of that we want art, we need art, but we don't want to pay for it. And we want it super fast. And you asked that really great question of "I wonder what the disconnect is?" And to me just answering what I think my disconnect is, is because everything comes so fast for me, because I'm able, in an instant to make a song with AI right now that I am able to do things so fast. And I don't want to wait for it.

Dan ABH 45:53
But I know. I know, deep down, that it takes time to create these things. But I also know that as a consumer, and being on the opposite side of the stage, or in the gallery or at the movies or listening to my favorite podcast, which is this one, of course, is that that disconnect is because our society is like that. So how do we change? How? You know, for me, it's stop and breathe for a second and realize what you are participating in. You know? It's this idea of like, shut your phones off. Shut your brain off. Maybe shut your brain off. I don't know. So, again, I could listen to you guys talk for hours and hours. But maybe our listeners couldn't.

Lisa Smith 46:56
Good. Well, I this is a great conversation. And we're going to continue this in our next episode of the Wise-Hearted Ones, where we explore how aesthetics shape you with Dr. Elise Edwards.

Elise Edwards 47:09
"Well, I think part of understanding what it means theologically, to be committed to creativity, I think goes back to this idea of knowing that we have to have a vision."

Lisa Smith 47:25
Be sure to join us on this journey as we continue to discover the original call of the artist and reconsider your creative gifting in light of the Wise-Hearted Ones.

Dan ABH 47:36
Thanks for listening to Be.Make.Do. a soul|makers podcast with your host, Lisa Smith. This episode was produced by me, Dan ABH. Want to join the movement? Sign up for our newsletter at soulmakers.org. All links and resources for this episode can be found in our show notes.