Podcast Episodes

Lisa Smith

Hello, welcome to Be. Make. Do. a soul|makers podcast where we talk about what it takes to pursue your calling as a culture maker with spiritual wholeness and creative freedom. I'm your host, Lisa Smith. And it's my passion to encourage and inspire you to become, who you are created to be. Make what you are created to make, and do what you are created to do. And today, I'm here with my producer Dan ABH. Welcome, hey. We're very excited to dive into the next installment of our conversation about the wise hearted ones, which is this incredible story in Exodus where God calls artists by name and by heart, to create an environment in the middle of the desert, that which shaped them, and remind them of who they are. It's just an incredible and beautiful story. And we're taking this bit by bit so we can really dive in and enjoy all the little pieces of it. So this installment, the second piece is looking at the aesthetic framework that God is creating for his people. So I'm going to stop and just on that word, aesthetic, and define that for a second, when we're talking about aesthetics, we're thinking about beauty, generally. But it's more than just, "oh, that's pretty." It's also a bigger conversation about what is beautiful. What someone has decided is beautiful. And also included in that is what is appropriate or useful. Does that make sense? Makes total sense? Yeah. So when an architect is designing a building, right, they are obviously well, maybe not, obviously. But they're not just thinking about? How do I get this building up? How what's obviously they think about the things that are going to make it a strong building, that it'll stand over time, how many people are going to fit in it, but they're thinking about more than just that steel and concrete and glass. It's not, it's not usually just enough that a building appears where where there wasn't one before. Ultimately, they are designing a structure to solve some sort of problem. They're thinking about the aesthetics about the beauty of the space, but like I said, included in that beauty is a sense of what's appropriate, or what's useful. Architects are concerned and designers are concerned, in a lot of ways with helping people to live their lives in a way that's more human, more humanely. Have you ever been in a space where you just really felt uncomfortable, or just like, hated it? Can you think off the top of your head if there are any spaces like that?

Dan ABH

Yeah, a few venues come to mind that I performed in where the aesthetics didn't matter. Unless like the aesthetics were like a bathroom full of like, band stickers, and maybe it's not as clean as you want it to be. But then, I get really suspicious in like, really beautiful venues where everything is perfect. And there's so much stuff. It's really weird. Too pristine. Yeah, it doesn't seem right in here. And I'm afraid that our amplifiers might be too loud for this pristine place.

Lisa Smith

Yes. Not weird. No, that makes total sense. Because then it inhibits you because you're like, you have to be quiet and behave or something. Yeah, like not appropriate.

Dan ABH

It's like you're performing in a library. But it's not a library, right?

Lisa Smith

So that's great. That's a really great example of both of those. On one hand, maybe it feels yucky and uncomfortable, and you don't want to be there. But on the other hand, it's not making you feel comfortable either, because it's too perfect. Yeah, those are great, great examples, that goes to this larger conversation. You know, that the idea here is that what goes in what surrounds us, how we curate our lives, the things that we surround ourselves with shape us, like if you are not conscious of that, and I'm sure you are conscious to a certain degree, like how you arrange your home or your studio or even your car reflects what makes you feel comfortable. And if you do it intentionally, who you want to be or how you want to be or how you want people to feel in your space. God is aware of that. And in fact, I mean, this is what we see in Exodus is that God uses the reality of how aesthetics shape us to help make us feel comfortable in the world, to make us aware of God's presence. And if we're paying attention, to shape us into what it means to be human, from God's perspective, and we see that in the world around us, I think it's not coincidental that people often talk about going to the ocean or having that mountain view. And then they feel connected to something bigger than themselves. I think we see in Exodus and in Genesis, we see throughout the Bible, that that's on purpose, right? That's not an accidental thing at all.

Dan ABH

God's like the main architect, and everything that God made in the beginning was very mean, God didn't make anything. Ugly or distracting. It was curious and beautiful looking.

Lisa Smith

I love that you bring up curious too. Yeah, to pique our curiosity and engage us in the world. Well, all of that is what God was doing in this tabernacle story. So he's clearly done it in the natural world created the sense of beauty. And then, as he's creating this space that's designed for his people, to meet, to worship, but also to govern, and to be reminded of who they are and whose they are, he takes those same aesthetics and applies. I just want to, like, takes buckets and buckets and buckets to apply to this tabernacle, these chapter after chapter after chapter of God designing a way for his people to live in happiness and wholeness with him. And the way that he does that is to use intricate beauty. So he has this whole story placed right up against the giving of the laws, the 10 commandments. So that's there. But right next to it, is this incredible structure he builds with the harnessing the power of aesthetics, to shape the hearts and the lives of his people. It's just really incredible, when you really spend time looking at the ornateness of it. And understanding that was used as a gift and a tool to shape people, you start to see the importance of aesthetics. And you start to see why the arts were given to us by God. And we start to get a clue as to what the intended purpose of art and art making was to be in the every day, day to day aspect of our lives as humans living in community and in society. Now, in light of all that, I want to pull back and apply it to a bigger conversation about why art making matters. And so I am so excited because we brought in my good friend, Dr. Elise Edwards to talk with us. And help us unpack it a little bit.

I have my good friend here for an excellent conversation, I just know. We're exploring part of the wise hearted ones book and some of the pieces and thoughts that are in there. And I just thought it would be perfect for today's conversation, to have my good friend, Dr. Elise Edwards to come and have a conversation around all of this, because I'm sure you have lots of thoughts. So welcome, Elise.

Elise Edwards

Thank you. I'm happy to be here and I do have lots of thoughts.

Lisa Smith

So I just want to by way of introduction, Elise is an assistant professor of ethics at Baylor University's Department of religion. And I actually wanted to read part of your bio, because it's really good, and I thought it would be better to do it that way. Elise's research is interdisciplinary, which is important to this conversation, I think, moving between fields of theology, ethics, architectural theory and aesthetics to examine issues of civic engagement, and to question how Christian beliefs and commitments are expressed publicly. As a black feminist, Dr. Edwards focuses her research on cultural expressions by for and about women and marginalized communities. She's working on her first book, "Building Justice: Theological Commitments in Architectural Design", which is about Christian values in architecture, which I'm very excited to read and obviously will have a lot to bear on this conversation as well. And in addition to all of that important academic and thought work, she's also a good friend and has been a part of the Convergence community forever, since before the beginning, so I'm really excited to to have you to be able to pick your brain on this topic. And yeah, think a little bit about, you know, at the end of the day, why it matters that we make art. What is the point of art. Is it more than just something nice and fun or decorative? Or does it serve a larger purpose? And within our context? Does it serve a larger purpose by design? Was it intended for that? So these are conversations we have a lot. Is there anything just off the top of your head from that?

Elise Edwards

I mean, yes, I mean, so just the obvious answer to the question, right, as is, does art matter? Is it more than just decorative? The answer is yes. Right? Or it matters, it is more than decorative. It does. It does things for us. It transforms us, it allows us to access certain kinds of skills, and what one of my friends Fiona Bond would call superpowers, right, that we can't get to through just ideas or linear processes. Or, you know, what we might call rational thinking. The arts and art making opens us up in ways that other types of media do not. So, from just a very basic standpoint, yes, the arts are essential. And that is part of I think, God's design for what it means to be human.

Lisa Smith

Yeah. Okay. Well, good answer. That's it. Answer is yes. Settled. And done. Yeah. Well, I could say a lot of things. This is why...okay, so I will go where I was gonna say. I could say a lot of things about why do we need to continue having a conversation where we build a case for it, because I think from from an artists perspective, it does seem to be self evident, there's probably something in our just sort of makeup, but also in our training and the way that we've learned to see the world where that just becomes self evident. But I think even so, the level to which art impacts us on a subconscious level, the engagement with it in our daily lives, is probably something that most people are not paying attention to as much.

Elise Edwards

Well, I think that's partly because of the way that art gets separated from different kinds of activities that we do, right? But this idea that someone can appreciate art, right, is fine. You don't have to be an artist to do that. But that act is separate from the other things you do in your life. Right? You go to your job, and then you might go to an art gallery opening if you're of a certain class and live in a certain kind of city. But that's a different kind of activity than your day to day work.

Lisa Smith

Yeah. And you were, I think, you hit upon the crux of, or one of the crux of the problem, this idea of appreciating art, we understand that, in a singular, or in a particular way, we understand appreciation of art as something that you go to see or you hang on your wall, where you might have some sort of intellectual or emotional reaction to, or you might just appreciate the, the technical aspect of it. But this deeper understanding of it being something that can shape you, or shape a culture or shape an environment or not that it can but that it does, the choices that we make, aesthetic choices, that we make do shape us and to think about that intentionally. And then to think about that theologically. I don't think that the power of that or the implication of that is always felt. And for artists, I think that to put on that hat feels a little intimidating. And maybe like I'm taking steps into land that is not mine. I'm not a theologian. I'm not a pastor. Who am I to step into that land. And so again, to understand the role of art is not necessarily to teach us something or to force something, but there is something in the aesthetics that has the capacity to shape us, and how do we engage that as artists from a theological perspective?

Elise Edwards

I think what you were saying earlier about, why do we need to make this case? Why if it seems self evident to many of us, except we're not thinking about the subconscious ways that art is shaping us. And that culture around us is shaping us. You know, we're not aware of it. And yet it is. So I focus a lot of my attention on architecture. And this is all about what I'm convinced, and I say many architects are convinced about the power of architecture that it actually creates the spaces in which we do things. So that's fairly obvious again, right? I mean, that's what architecture is. You create shelter, and, you know, architecture, as opposed to just ordinary buildings, if you're into these kinds of distinctions, is going to be an architecture, is going to be a building that has some, you know, very thoughtful aesthetic intent behind it. Like maybe your garden shed that you get from the big box hardware store is an architecture. But maybe your house is, it has to do with the level of aesthetic intentionality that went into that to the design of it. But both of those things, then make certain possibilities available to you. So in Andy Crouch's book "Artmaking," he talks about culture making rather, he talks about the horizons of possibility and impossibility. And so, once you create spaces that are there for a certain purpose, which, you know, most architecture is purpose built space, in some sense, it allows things to happen that couldn't happen before. But it also makes it so that certain things can't happen that have been there before or that might have happened there before.

Lisa Smith

See, I love that. It makes it possible that certain things can happen that couldn't have happened and make certain things not able to happen. That's really powerful. And that's a perfect kind of segue into this story in Exodus, which I think is the quintessential artist calling story. But to get to that part, is this first part where I think we have to have our minds blown. That God acts as this incredible designer architect, to build a structure, to build an environment for his people, the tabernacle in the middle of the desert. But if you really let yourself be overwhelmed by the level of intricate detail in the design by God, you can't escape that the aesthetics are really important to God. He's not leaving that to anybody. It's all very specific. And if you link it to this idea that you just said, that the architecture makes it possible for certain things to happen, which wouldn't have happened otherwise, and makes it impossible for other things to happen, that would have happened otherwise. Then it's like ding, ding, ding. So what's going on? In this story, if we're talking about that architects and designers are really trying to solve a problem. We're trying to do something in particular with the architecture. Then yeah, what does that say about what God is doing in this tabernacle design? But I was thinking about, when you design a space at home, you're talking about going to, you know, a box storing and getting stuff or you're doing renovations or even just choosing what sofa and the placement of that in your space. We kind of rearranged and redid our living room a couple years ago, and we have a very teeny tiny little living room, but we added a second sofa. Because I noticed over the years, there was never a place for people to gather. We didn't gather in the living room because there was only one space and it there was no TV or anything. There was nothing to gather us. And we added the second sofa and now people gather; we hang out there. So creating this structure which invites us to gather together to relax together, to just sort of hang out together. And it's the space and the way the spaces is designed, it's making that happen. It's for the people who inhabit that space, to be overwhelmed by the provision, and the care and the faithfulness and the righteousness of God, that in the midst of daily life, when things get hard, and you're living in the desert, and there's not a lot of variety going on in your diet, and other things like that, to be in this space to remember who God is. If we if we buy all of that, if we take all of that, and we really internalize that, that the design elements that we see in nature that we see in the tabernacle that we just we see in each other, are really important to God, then what might that say to those who are creatives, who are artists? About our calling? And how can we keep in mind how what we create affects the world around us? With the humility, you know what I mean? Like, how can we take that on?

Elise Edwards

Well, I think part of understanding what it means theologically, to be committed to creativity, I think goes back to this idea of knowing that we have to have a vision, right. And that that vision that we are casting, right, says something and then directs people in a particular way. So it's knowing from the very outset of our identity as artists and our activity as artists, that what we're doing does make this difference, and that we're being intentional about it. So there are always outcomes that we can't intend, right? Or that we don't imagine. But when you start with a clear intent, and that intent is aligned with what you see God's activity in the world being or you see your part of God's activity in the world being then that makes things better. So I can imagine for a filmmaker who has a mind to bring to light a certain social issue, right? That's the intent. That's the design intent, right? They're gonna make an X, of course, they want to make an excellent film that has all the technical things that has this evocative narrative. But the vision is to really highlight a particular social issue, or a historical thing, right or something, right? That they want to bring this to light. That's the vision that is motivated or from a Christian perspective, a Christians perspective could be aligned with what they see their part of God's kingdom as being right of calling to light this particular thing. Someone else might be a different kind of artist might really be about bringing this beauty to the world, right? Of showing something that brings the senses of all or transcendence or, or calm or peacefulness, whatever it is, they're trying to evoke through that beauty as a way of saying that this is part of God's creation, whether they're, depicting something natural or not, but that beauty is part of God's design, and that we're supposed to experience this delight, that comes from from beauty. With architecture, it could be something like, you know, designing a space where this community can gather, right? But even then it goes beyond just that basic sense. So what you were talking about with your living room, is the same thing that an architect should be considering when they're designing for particular community. Well, okay, yes, we want it to function in these ways. But more than that, there's a sense of, who are these people? And what is their mission, their distinctive mission, their understanding of themselves.

Lisa Smith

Okay, this is such a great conversation. Now, I'd love to bring Dan back into the discussion for my next question, because both of you are practicing artists and makers and creatives. So I'd like to get both of your perspectives on this.

Here's the question, which is basically like, with so much going on in the world, so many pressing needs so many concrete Read pressing needs and difficulties in the world. How can I justify making art? When there are so many important things I could be doing right now that question is flawed, in my opinion. And both of you guys make art and so the question is, how do I justify just making art when I could be doing something meaningful with my life? You know, answer that. That's false; I think that question is flawed. Do you think that question is flawed?

Elise Edwards

I think the question is flawed for two reasons. One, art on its own is important. Right? So I mean, it, it would be a really well, I'll say it in the terms that I often talk about it in terms of human flourishing, not just human survival, which I think is part of God's design for us, for us to flourish, not just to, like live at a mere level of subsistence that, for us to flourish, we have to have leisure, we have to have beauty, we have to have these things that enrich our lives and the arts is part of that. So yeah, I mean, and that is important, right? So yes, making sure people have like food, and water and shelter, and basic rights, and, you know, democracies, right? Those things are vitally important. But if there's nothing in life beyond toil and hardship, right, and there's no culture to enjoy, no rest, no play, then that's not life as God intended it. So I mean, one art is important because it helps us to flourish, not just to survive, right. But the second reason, I think that dualism between, you know, the important stuff is that we can use our art, some of us, you know, and certainly someone who feels called to do this could do this, is use our art in service of those broader social issues. So I was just reading a book yesterday by Maureen O'Connell, who talks about community murals in Philadelphia. It's a great book, but part of what she's talking about is this idea that the process of community muralism really addresses issues related to systemic poverty and racism. That, you know, these are artists, muralist who are doing work that does something transformative within a community. So there, you have visual artists who have chosen a medium that can then be directly tied to a form of social engagement. And you have musicians who do this. I mean, you know, obviously, Dan knows more about music than I do. But you have visual artists, you have musicians, you have playwrights and actors who find ways to bring the issues that they care about, into their work. Certainly writers do this. So I mean, I think there are two answers. One, art is important on its own as a part of human flourishing. But secondly, there there are ways to bring the social concerns that your that you find most pressing into your artwork, and to bridge that.

Lisa Smith

Yeah, absolutely. I love the look on your face. When I actually even posed the question. Because your perspective is different. So what do you got?

Dan ABH

Could you ask the question one more time?

Lisa Smith

Yeah, there's so many things going on in the world from a global perspective down to like, local things, like real concerns. And we could all just sort of shut down and say, we got to fix these problems, and no more music until we fix these problems. Let's not do the frivolous things. Let's fix these problems first. Why make art? Why make music? Why make music when there's a pandemic going on? Why does it matter whether or not you make music? Why does it matter? Whether or not you make music when, you know, there's social or civil unrest? Why does it matter to make music when there are these problems in the world? What do you think?

Dan ABH

Yeah, I just want to go back to the question because I know like we talked about a big thing we talked about for Be. Make. Do. and the whole soul|makers curriculum is that we're thinking about art all wrong. We're asking the wrong questions and I know why you're asking that question and the question, I'm putting my 2023 lens on it, it's offensive. No, no, it is, it's, it's offensive in a way. And so I'm gonna go back like, you know, this idea of like, you know, watching 80s movies and all these things where the kid says, "I want to go to art school" and the parent says, "Why do you want to waste your life?" type of thing. And we're still, we're still doing that. I know, a friend of mine, I won't say their name. I know a friend of mine, who has a kid and he also thinks the same way. I don't want my child to waste her life by getting an art degree. And so we still have this lens on still in 2023. We're trying to get people to rethink about all these other social issues and cultural issues. How about we talk about art now and really take it seriously? And so that question is sort of like, what does that even mean? Like, why? What is that? It's the person that's asking it, I think has the wrong lens on. And I think artists have been like, you know, sort of scared the whole time. And I think we're at a point where, and I'm not saying it's offensive, but it is offensive in a way because it makes us feel like what we do doesn't matter. And we've already been through so much struggle, so I answered that, okay, by saying I'm offended.

Elise Edwards

It demeans the legitimacy of art, right? It makes it seem like artists, something, I mean, Lisa, you use the word like "frivolous," right? That is something that doesn't really contribute anything to society, that it doesn't really have much purpose, in terms of what's really important. And that's just, I mean, that's offensive to those of us who have made our lives, you know, about this thing, right?

Dan ABH

And, the people that are saying that are the consumers of the art, or the consumers or television shows and, and the brilliant writing, that's well, not happening right now, but things and television and movies and all the music that comes out in the thing and the podcasts and everything that it takes to be a creator at all aspects, which is, you know, whether you're a DJ or a podcast host or a musician, or a wedding band performer or anything where there's a skill to it, and you're putting more time and not to mention that we all have other full time jobs, right? So we already have the struggle of working 60 plus hours a week. So you're putting 20 hours a week into your art and then you're 40, 45 or whatever hours you're working into your job. So that gets tiresome you know what I mean? And at this point, I'm in rehearsal more on a weekly basis than I ever have in my entire life. So I'm in rehearsal about just a rehearsal with the band itself. And I'm in two bands. So we're talking about 10 hours a week, plus all the shows plus the promotion, plus the branding, and all the all the dumb things, honestly, that you have to do as a musician now is like, you got to have a TikTok and Instagram and you got to promote, you got to do videos, you have to make music videos, and you have to have a presence and you have to play the show. And it has to be good. And there needs to be reviews. And it gets tiresome for sure. But to say, why do that when there's other important stuff to do? Well, that constitutes what's important to you.

Elise Edwards

Well Dan, I mean, you mentioned something that relates to a conversation Lisa and I had earlier, which is when you were saying that a lot of the people who are questioning the value of the arts are the ones who are consuming it. Right. You know, and so it's not that they don't want art or culture as part of their lives, but that they're minimizing the importance that it plays even for them. Which goes back to what Lisa and I were talking about earlier about being not conscience of the impact that arts really has on our lives. Right? So they can minimize this because they don't see the influence that it has, that they don't recognize the influence that the TV shows they're watching or the podcasts they're listening to, or the music that they're consuming that any of that right is that how it's shaping, how they see the world and how they're living within the world. They're thinking of something on top of, of, of their real life, when it really is seeping into the very fabric of what makes up their life.

Dan ABH

It's like the backdrop of their life. And it's the entertainment. So they think of as the entertainment in their life, but not about the process of what it took to get to the endpoint, which was consumption.

Elise Edwards

Right. And even then they're, they're minimizing the value that entertainment has in their life, and what art is doing in their lives as more than entertainment. So, the way it's shaping their worldview, I mean, I'm not saying this as "oh, those dumb consumers," right, this is most of us aren't aware of what it's, it's doing it how artists functioning in our lives beyond entertainment, or even, you know, what it's, it's doing for us as entertainment and how that can be incredibly valuable, or, you know, or destructive, or harmful, depending on what we're consuming.

Dan ABH

Yeah, and at a younger generation, like the Gen Z generation, and I'm not faulting them at all, I think it's really, I can't wrap my head around it too much. But like, their idea of creativity is making TikToks and reels and scripting things out. And buying equipment and making these super funny, consistent videos, because that's what people want to consume. That's also very creative. It's also very like, that takes a different sort of part of your brain and how you think of the world and the culture. But as far as like an artistic discipline, or you know what I mean? Like I again, it's different. It's still creative, but I don't think that there's discipline into consistency absolutely, but I think there's something else going on in your brain and also on a spiritual aspect. What's the spiritual connection, of that, of creating, depending on what your medium is?

Lisa Smith

I've got a little side project going that will hopefully turn into part of a podcast for the soul|maker stuff because I want to be able to draw a line from like, an Andy Warhol or some like Picasso or something, draw a line from their work to all the places along the impact to all the way to like, actual, like policy change. You know what I mean? Because I think that's a part of that three lane that's not as visible that car commercials are usually based on some obscure art. Like I see so many, like performance art thing, like it was, somebody saw a performance art piece that made it into some, something else that made it into something commercial, that made it into something till it goes all the way down to a car commercial, you know, but those concepts have been developed by artists for a particular reason. And I know that it also goes in that direction of both voicing the social ethos, but also change social change all the way to actual governmental policy and world. And that's fine, you know, because you were talking about at least that you can't control the outcome. Obviously, we can't control the outcome, and there's always positive and negative outcomes. But as you're talking about from a spiritual perspective, Dan, I think it's it is important, I think it's essential for us as Christians to acknowledge the fact that art has the capacity to do that. That art does impact on those bigger levels. And so then to be self reflective, to say, how do I approach the work in a way that honors the fact that that art is is something that that affects people's souls? And the entertainment piece Elise that you're talking about that I think. I've even come to appreciate comedians, just I even appreciate what that means. I actually know a couple of comedians who were probably very offended by that too. But yeah, it's just that neat. Like I seek that out sometimes on Netflix, because I'm just like, I just need to laugh. I need something that's going to take me out of that. Yeah. Well, guys, this has been a really wonderful little conversation and such a big, big topic. So thanks for your thoughtful and offensive responses.

Dan ABH

No problem.

Lisa Smith

So now it's your turn. And here's the question I want you to spend some time reflecting on, "What if this intention that God has for art and design in the tabernacle is also a part of your calling as an artist?" And how can your intention around how and what you create align more specifically with that intention. If you'd like to go deeper with this, you can head over to soulmakers.org and download a free copy of the wise hearted ones workbook, which has a series of questions for reflection and more great stuff. Well, this has been such a great conversation there's so much to chew on, we're just scratching the surface. And there's lots of other things to think of. But it leads us to the next part for our next episode, which focuses on the calling of Bezalel and Oholiab. So I hope you can join us for our next episode of the wise hearted ones "Called by Name and Called by Heart."