Podcast Episodes

Lisa Smith 

Hello, welcome to be make do, a soul makers podcast where we talk about what it takes to pursue your calling with spiritual wholeness and creative freedom. I'm your host, Lisa Smith, here with my producer, Dan ABH.

Dan ABH 

Hello everyone.

Lisa Smith 

We have been, as you know, exploring the story of Bezalel and the wise-hearted artist call in Exodus on the podcast and examining the deep impact that art, creativity, and imagination have on culture shaping. So in light of all that, we've been unearthing the role that artists can and do play as, I would say, contemplative leaders, and trying to look at tools and frameworks that can help us navigate our call from this perspective. I'm so happy today to welcome into the conversation artist and pastor. Joey Tomassoni, Hey, Joey, thanks for joining us.

Joey Tomassoni 

Hey, great to be with you all.

Lisa Smith 

Joey is a husband, a father, a painter and a pastor residing in Annapolis, Maryland. His work includes national and international collaborative projects exploring the intersection between faith, beauty and life. His work has been shown internationally and published in The Washington Post, USA Today and other online and local media outlets. Joey shows his work in galleries and alternative spaces around the US and consults with organizations and churches to cultivate beauty within their ecosystems. (I love that). Joey holds a Master of Fine Arts from American University, and an M.Th. from the University of Oxford with a focus on theological beauty. So, he is very qualified to be having this conversation with us. And I didn't mention that you did a residency with Convergence, our local faith community here in Alexandria, many, many years ago, and taught me so much at the time, especially kind of setting some of the foundational principles to really be focused on and asking questions and creating community for artists.

Lisa Smith 

So, talk about artists as a leader; Here you are. I've been really just looking forward to sitting down with you and chatting,

Joey Tomassoni 

Likewise, yeah.

Lisa Smith 

So I want to talk today with you about your thoughts on artists as leaders, your experience as an artist in various forms of leadership, and what, do we even, you know, maybe, how we might even think about that, and why art matters, and why Christians making art matters, and all of the all of the things, right?

Joey Tomassoni 

Yeah, all the things.

Lisa Smith 

All the things. So why don't we just start by just having you share a little bit about your background and what you're into now and how you ended up where you are, and, yeah.

Joey Tomassoni 

Well, great. It's again, just great to be with you all. And I'm so thankful for this podcast and the work you're doing. I think it's, it's significant work for artists who are thinking about their craft and thinking about how their craft relates to their faith, even maybe artists who are listening and who don't yet have faith or exploring faith. I think this is a really beautiful vision you have to help people to make that inter have that intersection.

My story is I just began making art when I was a little boy, like most of us do, but many of us, you know, unfortunately, stop making around 6,7,8, years old. It seems like we make less things intentionally as we grow, even though we're all continually making things. We may not see it in that same playful way, but I just kept making drawings and paintings and sculptures and so that's just part of my story. And my parents were very gracious to encourage that, to foster that. And so, and I was raised in a church context. And I'm so thankful that some churches are of toxic environments where the arts are sort of marginalized. And why would you waste time making a drawing? Why would you waste time? But you know, in a church I grew up in which actually had quite theological conservative roots, were very open to the idea.

So, in seventh grade, I remember being approached by somebody on the leadership of the church. They said, “We have this children's room, and we would love a Noah's Ark mural. And would you, we know you like to draw, and would you paint on the walls?” And so, I had all these experiences early on, around that sort of sixth, seventh, eighth grade time where I had, I was given the profound gift of painting on walls, making murals. And they were all wretched murals. I mean, they were just like they were. They were not aesthetically pleasing, but the practice and the opportunity, the gift of making, was really valuable. And my parents nurtured that in me, and the church nurtured that in me.

And so, when I met, met Jesus in a personal in a personal way, in a real way, you know, we might say, ushered into the new life, into the new creation. Around age 14, the making of art was just a natural thing I was already doing, and it just continued.

Lisa Smith 

That's so great.great.

Joey Tomassoni 

I also felt in that time a sense of calling into ministry, but it was like, well, what would that actually look like? Because I know I'm not necessarily going to be the kind of person who kind of pastor or minister, who sort of stands, you know, behind a pulpit in formality, you know. And there's nothing wrong with that at all, but I just knew it was more of an entrepreneur, more of a creative, more of an artist that would, that would cause a lot of problems for me and for probably anybody I would be speaking to. So, long story short, we stumbled across this thing called church planting, which, in its essence, is a kind of making where you're working not just with paint, but with people.

And of course, it's the Lord who's doing this and making connections and creating new things. And so, you know, foundational to the function, I think of church planting, or new church formation or experimental church formation is the same thing that an artist does when they go into their studio. So I was really thankful that, and I, of course, had a wonderful mentor for many years in Mako Fujimura, who was at the time, planting the Village Church out of Redeemer Pres. in New York City, and so sort of saw a model of, okay, you can be a painter and a pastor, you can make art, and you can also have this unique calling and ministry. And not every artist has that. Mine's, I'm a little bit of a unique we're all unique, but I'm a little bit different in that way. But I guess I've just been so grateful to have people in my life who have affirmed that.

And so the really, the really amazing thing happened when and Lisa, you know this about my story, I think, is we had helped start a church in our area, here in the Annapolis area, and there was a question that sort of emerged, should I, you know, the pastors of the church were very encouraged, and, you know, you should come on staff with the church, or maybe we really see this sort of vocational ministry calling on your life. You should maybe go to seminary. And then there was, like, this third option out there of that, Katie, my wife, and I, we had just been married, sort of had this hunch of, well, maybe there's this, maybe there's this other option of going to graduate school for painting an MFA, which is like, wait, what on staff of a church or go to pursue your MFA. And as we prayed, we really did have a strong sense from the Holy Spirit and from friends and from, you know, wise counsel leaders in our lives say you really, you really should go to pursue the MFA

And part of that was, you know, we're thinking about, you know, the sort of, the trauma, the damage, the hardship that has gone on in our in our culture, from many different from many different places, but specifically the hypocrisies of the church and people you know, up to 80% of our population are, you know, what we might say have become religiously disenchanted. They're not waking up on a on a Sunday morning saying, "Wow, what? What church should we go to?" They're actually thinking, "I want to stay as far away from that place as I possibly can." And so, we felt like spending time with artists who didn't have any faith background was a really wonderful way to sort of learn the language of the culture, in order to translate the hope of Jesus, the Good News, into this sort of volatile, (we now use the word of an "estuary,") estuary world that we live in.

So it was, it was really, and I can't tell you how much I learned from my professors and classmates at American University in DC. Is where I where I did my MFA, who didn't have any faith background, and probably at times, were quite confused by how could I be an artist in this program who has faith, and I almost got kicked out of the program, which is another interesting story to tell, maybe for another time, but it was, it was just such a gift to be there and learn. And it really the Lord used it as a rich foundation for the work that we've sort of been doing now over the last 2020, years or so since then.

Yeah, and I do, I do. I do feel like my calling is as an artist and as a minister, as a pastor, as a missionary. I sort of live somewhere in between those, those worlds and but it's all integrated. For me. It's one thing that the Lord's called me to. So I still make paintings. I make these. Have a few right here. I just, I sort of take these, I do these little plein air paintings. Yeah, I take my, my little plein air box into the city or into the neighborhood, or the soccer practice or whatever it is, and just, you know, pray and find a point of where I sense the Lord wants me to pay attention, and then just respond visually. And I give myself about an hour, and it's like painting, painting the hours. And, you know, it's a it's a spiritual practice. And I'm so thankful because, you know, again, you make a lot of wretched little paintings, but a few gems come out here and there. And the Lord tends to use these paintings to meet people as they see them. They resonate with a color or shape. I'm trying to sort of walk that line between, you know objectivity, and you know that sort of more ethereal abstraction, the cosmos that you know, the mystery and the wonder, you know, yeah, of who God is.

So, so I'm still painting, and then I also serve as a pastor at church here in Annapolis called Downtown Hope that we started in 2009 and more recently, we've started a nonprofit called Estuary, which is really sort of, I think it sort of bridges the gap between maybe the church and the art in some ways, and it's where we're really sort of walking alongside of people who want to have a kind of creative impact, in Jesus name, in their cultural estuary, as we talk about where they live, where they work, where they play. And so people get these fantastic visions and sense of impressions of what they want to and then we have the gift of walking alongside of them and helping them dream about it and think about, what is that next step to take? And so it's sort of like, in a way, we're sort of equipping artists who don't know that they're artists in the making of in the making, into and part of, you know, the New Creation which is upon us, yeah, which is which one day will be here in full, yeah. So I'll pause there and say that's a little bit of what I've been up to and what I'm doing now.

Lisa Smith 

I think it's amazing, Joey, I really, I really do, and it's so interesting to see how all of this sort of moved and played out in your life. And I think you and I have some similarities in that, you know, starting out from that artistic background and then being drawn into, yeah, the pioneering world of church planting, and what is, why am I even here? But it does feel right, and it makes, you know, I can't, I'm not going to be the traditional thing, but, but I just, I look at you and I listen to your story and what you're doing with Estuary. I think, you know, so often church leaders, I have these conversations with church leaders and or artists, because the church leaders are afraid of what would artists do if they're given the freedom? You know, we got to be careful. And yet here you are like, this is an example of, “This is what it looks like when an artist leads.” When an artist kind of envisions all of these amazing you know.

Because just like you're talking about your plein air painting, about that being in a spiritual discipline, this practice of prayer, it's like artistic practices. Obviously, I think teaching and leading within congregations or other people to be able to enter into prayer through these you know, more sensory means is one thing, but then you expand that out to what you're doing with Estuary, what you're doing is helping people to use creative senses and abilities and tools to really unearth the giftings and the callings that God has placed on them that maybe don't fit into the typical boxes. So, it's, it's that artist's mind. It is that, that MFA training that actually allows you to be able to do ministry in a way that I think is so life giving. For this moment, I really do feel like it is a movement. It is God calling forth artists to lead in these unconventional ways, because that's exactly what you know. It's this breath of fresh air within churches. So, I think it's just really, really beautiful.

I mean, what are your thoughts about, about that, about this expanded role of artists, specifically, maybe within church leadership, or the life of the church, beyond just music minister or something like that, you know?

Joey Tomassoni 

Right, right, right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think it's all important. So, you know, the music minister plays a critical role, and the art on the walls and in worship context sacred saced artists is incredibly important. And there's obviously a rich history in the church as a whole, particularly in the Catholic and Orthodox traditions. I think the Protestant tradition is sort of learning, reclaiming. And there's been, as you know, good, a real movement over the last 20, 30, 40, years. And at least in the US, I'm sure it's broader as well, with Christians in the Visual Arts and International Arts Movement. And, you know, Art House and these kinds of, these kinds of great leaders in our area, in our culture, in the church, who are really helping that.

But there is, there is another sort of, I agree, there's another sort of step beyond that that encourages people to begin thinking about the ordinary places they find themselves, where they live, work and play, as spaces, as blank canvases, in a way that the Lord wants to inhabit and wants to bring forth. Oftentimes it's - sometimes it's creative solutions to problems. Sometimes it's just beauty for the sake of beauty. In a place the whole our whole Western, you know, American culture has been sort of, in a way, devastated by the Enlightenment and everything is there's so much reduction to functionality, and this sort of is across whatever your faith background is. And so, the church and the Christian faith holds this really special, you know, resource called Beauty and an avocation for the arts that allow, I think what I hear you saying, I agree with it, is sort of unlocks and sort of breaks up some of that reductionism.

It sort of, you know, adds color to sort of, you know, a very sterile cultural moment that we're in and, you know, and many have been writing on this sort of, this notion of re enchantment. People are, you know, so interested. Someone was talking to me yesterday about a homeless shelter in our area is having a Fall Fest. And at the Fall Fest, there's going to be tarot card readings, and there's going to be all of these things. And it's like, wow, that is a really interesting world that we live in now that this homeless shelter doesn't have any faith background, or it isn't not associated with any particular church, but somehow, for their fall festival, there's people who are interested in the spiritual realm, as it were, and there is that hunger, I think, that people come to where they're like; "Wow, a white cube is maybe not necessarily - there must be more to life than a white cube." In a way.

And that was actually part of why I started painting outdoors as I was, I was primarily working in a white cube studio. Again, there's nothing wrong with working in a white cube studio. Many artists are called to that, but I just had this deep conviction of, I need to kind of get out into the messiness of the world and into the streets where there's sidewalks have cracks and people are annoying and, you know, you're stuck at red lights and all these things where, you know, let, let's, let's explore. Discover the beauty that is happening in this, in this canopy in this, in this grand canopy of the world that God has made and is certainly affected and marred and distorted in, you know, Augustinian language, by sin, but that there's a bigger story of God putting things back together and restoring and ushering in his new creation. And so let's go participate in that, you know, in a way, let's get out of the white cube. And in a way, let's get out of the sanctuary, right, right. Move. Let's Move from, let's move from the sanctuary into the estuary, which is, which is a dangerous space. And this, you know, an estuary, of course, is where salt and fresh water collide. And Mako (Fujimura) was the one who introduced this great metaphor to me. We live here on the Chesapeake Bay, which is one of our nation's largest estuaries, and so we're sort of trying to live into the, live into the metaphor here. But it's dangerous. It's volatile. It's not safe, yeah, but actually, almost everything Jesus is doing through the Gospels is not, is not safe, right? It's good, it's good, but it's not safe.

Lisa Smith 

Yeah. Yeah. And it's so I really do, like we were talking about, we've been exploring the story of the making of the Tabernacle in Exodus, and this design that God has, which is that is to be a witness to the nations, to be very visible. And I was just struck when I read it for the first time, in reading through all the detail the story, just how intentional God was with the aesthetics of it, and just really blown away by the reality that, okay, God created us to appreciate these things and be affected by them in this way. He's using them to do something in us and on us. Wow, this is much bigger than, you know, I thought. This is huge, and this idea of moving out into those spaces, to be Tabernacles, you know, to be these witnesses to shock and delight and inspire awe, question and embrace, and all of these things that art just naturally does, because that's what it is, that's what it was designed for.

Joey Tomassoni 

Yes, yes.

Lisa Smith 

And how do we as artists start taking these things more seriously? I think the theological implications of what God designed it for. This feels to me like a newer conversation in a lot of ways, which then leads up to this leadership kind of conversation.

Joey Tomassoni 

Yeah, that's right, that's right, yeah. I think that you know a leader. I mean, there's many ways to define what a leader is. And we sort of have lots of that language in. again, in sort of contemporary business, you know, functional, you know, a leader does thing. The leader gets things accomplished, right? But I think maybe more fundamentally, and leaders do those kinds of things. But I think maybe the one of the fundamental things the leader does is influence or shape, right?

Joey Tomassoni 

I think that a leader is somebody who comes into a space and can, with people, and whatever they are doing or wherever they are going, there's sort of the space moves, or the people move with them to some degree. And that's a real that's that is an incredibly - it's a gift, and it's a humbling, it's a very humbling thing. It's a very, it's a very special thing, and it's a thing that we, those of us who have that been given that gift. It is a gift from the Holy Spirit, the gift that God makes some people gives, gives people at birth and their personality and all their unique makings, but it is a really important stewardship that, as we also have seen, can easily be abused. And there's certainly been times in my own life where I have been the kind of leader that is shaping things for good in people's lives. So I just would say, I think it's about influence and the shaping of or the moving of people in a direction, and that is exactly what art does. Art is when we make something, we're introducing, we're either bringing different things together in a new way, or, you know, I mean, or we're sort of bringing something new into an existing environment. It and that that will be, to some degree, a catalyst for change, right?

Lisa Smith 

That's thing about art too, is that you don't have, well, maybe it's an illusion that anybody has control over the outcome of their leadership. But with art in particular, there is a sense that you feel like, you know, I create something, even if it's a space or an experience. I can't necessarily. And even as an artist, a lot of times, artists are very reluctant to want to affect a particular response, you know, they want to create something but, but I think that there's so much, I think this, again, is why, like you were, you were talking about sort of the heaviness of that reality, the humility that that there really does need to be, a sense of submitting ourselves to discipleship and training to really understand this as a gift and a responsibility, that really there is this kind of nature of being a conduit for God to work within these things that we create.

And I think that can be kind of heavy for artists. I do kind of notice when I have this conversation with there's a reluctance to, like, don't, don't put all that on me as an artist. You know, I'm a I just, I paint, and my faith is over here. But I, and I think that's fair. I think that's fair to just say, I, I do it as an expression. It's just what I do. But I, I do wonder if there's a way to think about it which allows the freedom, actually maybe allows for more creative freedom to go into all kinds of places, even the dark places. As an explorer, you know, as a as a way of, I don't know, bringing to bringing to life, bringing to life, like you said, introducing new things to into different spaces.

That is, it's like, it's like a mission, you know, it's like being a missionary or a you know, how can we, how can we think, I mean, I'm putting you on the spot, but like, how can we think about our role as creatives, from a, you know, an integrity as an artist? So we're not talking about propaganda or just like, trying to get across some message, but at the same time, maybe hold that original kind of, you know, cultural mandate, you know, if we're supposed to create cultures, create the world, and that's what we're trained to do. I mean, shouldn't we take that seriously, I think, and not be betraying anything artistically that I feel like that's, I don't know, I'm throwing stuff at you.

Joey Tomassoni 

Yeah. No, it's great. These are great. These are great questions. I mean, sort of thinking through this in real time here with you, and I've spent a little time thinking about this as well. I think one thing that I think is important for artists is that so there's this, there is this rampant individualism in our in our western context, and I think it's very easy. Understandably, many artists are more introspective and more introverted and more internal processors, which is going to be a natural draw to be alone. And there's nothing wrong with that, but I think it's all it's also really important. And I think, I think the Christian faith sort of offers this in a really profound way, that at the center of the Christian faith is a God who is community, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. And so an artist should be encouraged to know that they're not alone. And so some artists may have, may have more of a natural propensity or a gift or a desire to sort of get their stuff out there and to be more proactive. And you taught you share vision with them, Lisa, and they're like, Yes, I'll go do an installation on the street, because I want to, like, create beauty there. And, you know, and others are gonna, hey, don't put that on me. I just want to be in my studio.

I think both are okay. I think the encouragement is in both cases. I think you actually see this in the Exodus narrative is that, you know, Bezalel has a partner, he has a, he has a friend who's there with him, creating, and he also has a he also has a broader community in Moses and Aaron. And so we need to think about this in in terms of an ecosystem and a dynamic community of a variety a range of gifts like, you know, the New Testament has so much to say about this.

This person has this gift, and this person has this gift, and when it all comes together, it actually functions in itself as kind of a living composition. Doesn't it? So I think artists can be encouraged in that and it's also a real exhortation to people who are maybe in, you know, formal, you know, leadership positions in the church, pastors and churches, you know, whoever the leaders are in that setting, is to see artists, to pay attention to them and to welcome them into the conversations, and not to just, it's both not to let the artist be in there, in their world, isolated all by themselves, and just sort of maybe enable that draw them out.

But it's also to say what to see the artist and say, what you have to offer the body of Christ and the world and the community around us is really valuable. So, we need you, not only to make art, keep making please. We will help. We will help fund that. Will help encourage that. And we also need you at this meeting. We also need you to help us think about, you know, the children's ministry. Or we also really need your eye and ear on, you know, the flow of our gatherings on Sunday mornings. And not because we need you to make it pretty, not because we need you to, you know, dress it up, right? No, because you have a mind and you have a gift as an artist, you're going to see things we don't see. And we want to make sure we're thinking about and stewarding all that God has entrusted to us in this local community we call church. And your voice and your gift and your person, who you are, as a person, is valuable, and we want you here. And so, I think then there's a little volleying here. It sort of challenges the artist to say, you don't get to just stay in your studio by yourself. No, no. Think about what people are missing out on without you being here. And we so appreciate what you're doing in your studio, and we want you out with us as well.

I'll say one other thing is, one of the things that I think is indicative of, sort of, again, a modern, reductionistic vision of the world and beauty, of course, was a, you know, maybe we would say a victim of that, in some ways, is that we sort of reduce the craft of making as an artist, and we reduce our vision of beauty into this very like, it can't be functional at all, and can't have anything. It can't have any if it has if it has any purpose, it's not real art. If it has any purpose, it's not real beauty. And I think, I think that's actually problematic. Now, of course, we have seen the extreme on the other end, where we're where it's propaganda and we're just making in order to get, you know, some means to an end, and that's also equally unhelpful. But I think the vision of beauty in the new in the Scripture, is actually this really wonderfully integrated, you know, vision of, when you get beauty, you also get truth and goodness. And when you get goodness, you get truth and beauty, and when you get truth, you get goodness and beauty. And so there's sort of the early Church Fathers talked about, like the convertibility of these transcendentals. And so therefore you might make something and it might do something really good in the world. And that's okay. It's okay. You might make something and it may not be so ethereal and mysterious that nobody understands it. Somebody might come in and look at one of your paintings and they might say, That is beautiful. And I totally get it. It's so clear to me, that's ok.

Lisa Smith 

You didn't fail.

Joey Tomassoni 

Yeah, you didn't fail. It's okay, yeah. So, I think we need some grace in this conversation as well, and then some work of art is meant to be like, it's meant to be completely evocative, and you walk away and you're like, more confused or upset even.

Let me share this. This is so great. I was with my sons this last week, and we were walking through Mark chapter three, where Jesus heals the man with the, you know, his hand was, you know, injured his hand. His hand, I can't remember the exact language, and he, it's on the Sabbath, and he and Jesus, goes into the synagogue, and he's there, and he asked, he poses a question. I mean, this is, this is a living work of art. I mean, this is a performance piece that Jesus is on is unfurling here, and he and the stage is set, and the and the religious leaders are there, and he says, you know, is it right to take life, or, you know, to have life or to kill on the. Sabbath, and they're silent, you know, which just the tension rises in the room, and it just as Jesus looked at them, angry at their hardness of heart. And then he does this miraculous healing, and he walks out, he drops the mic, and he walks out and and their response to this work of art is not, how mysterious, how beautiful, how evocative. Jesus just flipped the law on its head and helped us. Some people there may have thought that way the Pharisees, and they said, "How can we kill him?" It says they went out and plotted on how to destroy Jesus. And so there is also art that is absolutely evocative, and it's important that artists are faithful to that as well, if that's what they're called to do,

Lisa Smith 

Yeah, absolutely. Well, kind of moving away from the church world in particular, and looking at the broader cultural context, I think I mentioned in an email that Deborah Haynes book the Vocation of the Artist was really just a catalyst for a lot of questions that I've been exploring over the last 20 years. I guess that's right. She talks about how artists have served different roles over the centuries. You know that tortured genius and pseudo religious conduit, and, you know, all these different kinds of things. And I know, you know, you mentioned Mako Fujimura. He kind of talks, about that too, that in the 20th century, artists were, you know, really drawing our attention to what's wrong in the world, basically. But you know. What is this role for the 21st century?

And she talks about basically working from a perspective that art making matters and that it serves to impact the culture in significant ways. And you know, given the challenges facing our world in the 21st century, that you know, perhaps artists should consider taking seriously the possibility that what we do can serve as this prophetic criticism and imaginative visionaries and help lead the way in addressing some of those concerns or or basically help us to tell the truth about ourselves and envision multiple possible alternative narratives to the kind of hopeless ones that sort of surround us. And I mean, even though I don't think she's a Christian, I don't think she would call herself a Christian, I feel like, from a Christian perspective, that makes a lot of sense. What, what are your thoughts about the role of the artists within culture, within the industries go? I mean, a lot of what I do is encourage, you know, it's I meet a lot of people at that intersection that that you and I kind of wrestled with. And some people, it makes sense, yeah, go, go to seminary. Other people, it's like, no, go get the MFA, go to Hollywood and be a filmmaker. That is where your calling is, not to make, quote, unquote, Christian music, movies or music, but to make art period. What are your thoughts about that, the role of the artists in the 21st century and all that other kind of good stuff? Yeah,

Joey Tomassoni 

Yeah. And I, even though she may not identify as a as a Christian, she's being, from my perspective, being an image bearer, being created, yeah, as an image bearer, she's sort of participating in, or tapping into, you know, one of the foundational things that God does in the world, and then he encourages us to do, which is to make.

Joey Tomassoni 

So, I think that's really, I think that's really good what she's thinking about. I think you know that that kind of thing can become, you know, most fully known in in the person of Jesus,  but we're here, we're here in the world as artists of faith, or just as artists and then we're in the 21st century here, which there's obviously many things unfolding, but I think we're sort of reeling a little bit from much of the deconstruction and the sort of trauma of the 20th century. And I think what I'm seeing that's, that is clear, is there's, there's, again, it's a small picture, a small sliver we see dimly. So there's many things going on in the world, but at least in a Western context, there seems to be this idea that our current, maybe we might say, post Christian or secular vision of the world is not fully able to deliver on the the hardships that we're facing in terms of meeting those needs, and particularly, I'm thinking around this the notion of division and divisiveness, right?

And this is really sad as we see it play out in culture, from politics to, you know, education to academia, whatever it is, there's just a lot of division happening, ideologies. And so, I think part of the role the artist is; I would actually advocate for the creating of art that has in its eye or out beyond, around shaping beauty.

I think beauty is the and this is what some of my focus has been. You know, at the University of Oxford is beauty is a resource. It's not a resource to be, quote, unquote, used per se, but it is a real thing that God is a very part of his very nature that is at play in in the world and beauty, one of the things I'm thinking about and writing about is beauty, one of the most important characteristics of beauty, or how when we experience beauty, one of the things we're experiencing is unity.

Joey Tomassoni 

So when a composition is unified, it radiates a kind of beauty. And so beauty then moving in the other direction as we cultivate beauty, as we experience beauty, as we have, and a lot of it is as we have eyes to see and are able to theologically, or maybe if we're not even a person of faith, just to acknowledge and see beauty. It actually is a kind of balm, a kind of grace, a kind of means of grace that, in a profound way treats divisiveness. Because when we experience beauty, you know, maybe we say lower lowercase b, beauty in anything, what it actually does is it lifts us to see it. It points us to the transcendent, to see a kind of whether we believe in God or not, we're lifted out of our moment, and we see that there's things that are bigger than we are. There's things that are that transcend this situation. There's bigger things going on in the world, and it sort of grabs our attention. It sort of arrests us in that way. And we're lifted, we're lifted out of the divisiveness, and we're lifted out of the trauma, and then, and then, we're no longer looking at that person next to us as the enemy, because we're realizing, oh my goodness, this is such a small thing that I'm care about here.

Lisa Smith 

Yeah,

Joey Tomassoni 

In a way, it's maybe a little way of, you know, there's something that has to do with worship there, in that we are sort of lifted out of our idols in that moment, all the insecurities and fears and everything, and we're sort of, you know, transported into the presence, you know, you go talk about the tabernacle, into the presence of a God who is bigger than these things. So, I would advocate for the cultivation of beauty and artists thinking about their work and how their work actually has the opportunity to radiate beauty. And what do you mean by that? Well, what I don't mean is, like pretty flowers and, you know, and all the things puppy dogs and, you know, like some sort of cliche imagery, like, I'm talking about a beauty that is robust, that pays attention, is honest and transparent about the trauma and the hardship, that says there is darkness, but, but there's another story that's being written. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. So, I guess those are some of my initial thoughts on that.

The other thing I've been thinking a lot about Jesus's prayer in John 17. You know Jesus high priestly prayer. And he prays that for, he prays for those who would believe. And then the prayer is that he would, he prays that they would be one, or that they would be unified even. And then he connects even, as you know, the son is one with the Father. So, we're sort of then connecting this to divine participant, divine participation mirroring the Godhead. And then the outcome of that is so that the world might believe so there's something in Jesus's prayer that to the degree that there's a unity happening, and of course, this prayer is in the context, specifically of the people of Jesus, the body of Christ, the degree that there's a unity there, there's a beauty that radiates. And that beauty is actually deeply attractive too. To the watching world. The watching world sort of sees the kind of unity and its rate and the beauty that is radiated out of it, like, wow, that's the kind of community that I long, that I'm longing. I'm so alone in this individualistic world. I'm so tired of all the division and all the drama and all of the just everything is, is there any balm? Is there any softness? And it's like, “Ah, here is a community that is so loving and so unified and so interconnected.” Yeah, that's beautiful, yeah,

Lisa Smith 

I think that's the opportunity of this time that's so different than, you know, when I was in high school, probably when you were in high school, you know, in this the context has shifted from that, that modern perspective, which is prove it to me, you know, let's intellectually understand this, or even the need to tell you why it's important to consider these Jesus things to this moment where it is just as simple as, "please tell me there's something more." Like, please tell me there's something more than this. And so that opportunity that just to simply be able to invite people into this experience of beauty, of that unity, of that reality of wholeness in Christ, like it's that simple, and it's that complex, because it has to be real. It has to and that's, I think, part of, I think part of what this, this this movement, this calling artist forth, maybe, is about of the Holy Spirit is that this isn't a time for logical words. We've done that, you know, this is a time people want to open their hearts and, you know, touch something deeper.

Joey Tomassoni 

Yes, incarnation. I think part of what you're getting at is, is the notion of incarnation, there's something that has to be physical, tangible around the experience that the Lord uses. Then eventually, down the line, people might, you know, they will be intellectually convinced of something. But initially, and I agree, I think the world is fatigued from the church, sadly, in many ways. And then and the culture is fatigued from the culture in many ways. And so, beauty, art, art making becomes this really powerful experience, place where people can start to slow down and catch their breath a little bit and then that is that does become a, we're not making things for that reason, but that's the actual, the effect, the impact of beauty and art in the world.

And it's sort of really, people are moved by that, and they are compelled by that, and they're healed in that, and they're drawn to that. I you know, I do think if we think about these three transcendentals, people aren't interested in the conversation around truth right now. I know there are a few people the prevailing culture to your point, let's have a night at our church where we're going to try to convince you that the Christian faith is true, no one's going to touch that. People have a lot of questions about the moral integrity of the church for a number of reasons. Granted, a lot of those stories are that hit the news. Are the strong exceptions, but they're still. They still paint a picture. They still, they still create an image in people's minds, and there's no excuse for those things. And so people, I think, are in general, fatigued by that and wondering, is a church, even a moral institution, that I will only be part of a beauty. But beauty is something that is, is, you know, there's an open door there. I think there really is an open door.

,

The purpose is not, let's use beauty to try to get people into the church. I think the purpose the idea is we as followers of Jesus, have been given this gift of making, and we want to make. And. steward whatever we have in the in the most extraordinary, elaborate ways possible. Yeah. And what happens is people are drawn to it, and they have questions, and then we welcome them in around our tables, or whatever it is, yeah. Really interesting things start to happen from there.

Lisa Smith 

Well, I know I was just thinking back to earlier you were talking about the MFA program, and I just know that somebody's going to ask me, like, why didn't you haven't tell that story? So, if you don't mind, if you're up for it, tell us the story.

Joey Tomassoni 

Yeah, absolutely. I'd love to tell the story. It's a great story. So, you know, as anybody who's listening, who's been part of an MFA program, most MFA programs stateside are influenced primarily through 20th century modernism and, you know, sort of the contemporary mindset of postmodern ideology and so, so, so in our program, it was, it was actually, it was Really amazing. We would, we would get together, and we would put our art on the walls, and then we would talk about everything from world hunger to whether God exists, to the atrocities of the world and natural disasters and everything.

Joey Tomassoni 

So, it's just like, this is, this is the great part of an MFA program. Is like, there is a lot of flexibility and latitude. So, I'm thinking, this is great, because this is a really sort of, you know, open environment where, you know, I can explore my faith in a way where I wouldn't necessarily be judged, because we're open here, everybody's. We’re supposed to be at least very open here. So, this is when the Katzen center was first built, probably in 2005 which is like American University's wonderful, beautiful art gallery and their studios there. So, at the time we as MFA students, were given studios that had our we had our own key, so they weren't shared. And at the time, anybody could access that building, 24/7 publicly. So, you didn't have to have a key to get into the Katzen center. Anybody could come in at any time during the day, but you could not get into a particular studio because they had keys. They had locks on them.

So, I was thinking about it was, I guess it was like my the end of my first year, and sort of the end of your thesis project. And I started really praying and thinking about the homeless population of our city, and I was thinking, man, you know, there's homeless shelters, but it would be so great if people just welcomed the homeless into their homes, but maybe that's unrealistic. But what if there were, like these third spaces which were sort of accessible to the homeless, but maybe it wasn't, didn't put it wasn't as scary, or didn't put people as much risk and liability. I thought, well, a homeless person could come into the captain center and sort of, you know, be there all night long, but they would get kicked out if they hung out in the main gallery area, but if they had a key to my studio, they could maybe sleep there.

And then I thought, this is really amazing. This is really interesting. Like, maybe we could actually, maybe we could collaborate on this a painting, and I could work on the painting from 9am to 7pm and then they could work on the painting from 7pm to 9am and have a have a warm place to stay, and a bed set up in the studio. And it sort of becomes this, like really interesting experiment on, you know, how do you maybe think about alternative ways to address homelessness? And, you know, as a as a sort of a composition unto itself.

Joey Tomassoni 

So, it sort of like melded both those things together. We're making a painting, but we're really making a we're really talking about a much bigger kind of painting here, that composition. So, worked on this, and then during the critique, you know, had the painting, but the painting was really just a conversation point to say, "let's talk about this thought or this idea," or this conceptual work of art that Joey has done here as an artist, thinking about his studio in this way.

And one of my classmates was very, very upset. He was livid and I understand why he was, but he felt one night as he was working in his studio, there was a homeless man going into the studio next to him because he had the key and he was there, and it put him in a very vulnerable space where he didn't feel safe. And I do have a total sense of empathy for that, and I probably did not communicate. I certainly didn't communicate. Well, I'm sort of thinking, we're in open territory here, so, right? And I knew this. I knew this particular homeless man. I had spent time with him, albeit I didn't know all his history, but I had spent enough time with him to, you know, to feel like he wasn't going to put any of any of my classmates at risk, or anything like that. He had come upon hard times. And, you know, he wasn't struggling with any, you know, with alcohol or drugs or anything like that that I could tell of. It was like he was just in a season where, in the cold winter in DC, it would be really great to have a warm place to stay.

So, during the critique, one of my classmates just sort of raised, you know, it was sort of just raised the concern. And, you know, I just remember one of my professors was basically like, this is an atrocity. "How could you? How dare you? How dare you do this." And I remember another professor saying, "This is the most brilliant piece of art we've had all year." Which is, which is great, which speaks to the quality of the MFA, yeah, of the faculty there that they were like two different perspectives, but it was very scary in the moment I said, and I just sort of like, in a way, sort of gave my defense of the work, and I said, Listen, we've been in this we've been in these critiques all year long. And we have talked theoretically, we've waxed eloquently about all of the problems of the world. And I'm just assuming everybody that. But, like, I'm just continuing that conversation in this evocative way.

Yeah, but it was very and that probably was the thing that was the most interesting about that installation was that it, it sort of, and I didn't realize this, the work of this work of art would have this, but it sort of, in a way, exposed the hypocrisy even within our open MFA program, that maybe we're not all as open as we think we might be. Yeah, and it was, and I think that's why some of the professors were upset so the department chair brought me out this side conversation. He said, "Listen, I really appreciate your work. I think it's really strong, but these two faculty members are asking that you be removed from the program because you did this, so I really need you to not do anything more like this while you're here."

"I love your work, so here.

Joey Tomassoni 

Yeah. So now, as an artist in an MFA program, in a very open program, I'm being given very strong rules put on me because I had, because unintentionally, unknowingly, I had completely disrupted the system.

And this happens, doesn't this happen in our own lives, all the time, in our churches, everything? So it was that was that was this. That's the story. I wasn't kicked out of the program I graduated, which I was grateful for, and I'm so grateful for my classmates and the profs there and the whole experience, and I certainly didn't mean to cause any harm or to put anybody at risk, and I learned a lot through as well. I think next time I probably, it probably would have been a better act of love to communicate. It ahead of time talk to my classmates and my professors about it, and, you know, but, you know, I think we we learn, and we stand in grace, and I was grateful to have that experience. Yeah,

Lisa Smith 

Yeah, the experience itself is, is worth a lot. Wow, that's, that's a great story. It's such a great story.

Joey Tomassoni 

It's pretty wild. It was, it was very wild.

Lisa Smith 

Well, Joey, thank you so much for taking the time to talk. This has just been really, really, absolutely, I really appreciate it.

Joey Tomassoni 

Absolutely, absolutely. And thank you for the work you all are doing. I mean, it's just it's so important, and I'm a fan, and just grateful to be with you here and happy to be included and involved however I can.

Lisa Smith 

Thank you. Thank you so much. Joey. Been so great listening to you talk and just hear about all the ways that you think about things. It's I love, I love talking with you. So thank you so much. Wow. Thanks.

Joey Tomassoni 

Thank you for your questions. I really appreciate it great to be with you.

Dan ABH 

Thanks for listening to be make do a soul makers podcast. If you want to go deeper, be sure to visit soulmakers.org and download our free wise hearted one study guide with questions for personal reflection or discussion with a group, plus word studies and more.